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Egality of teams
Forum index >> Grid-Iron discussions >> Egality of teams Goto page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
Supermeek
Posts: 1287
Posted on 2008-09-14 13:04:35
They schould have started filling Div 4 before they filled the top.

All managergames i know start by filling the bottom first, so everybody has an equal chance.

So in my opinion this is a major error by the developers.
  
Mercutioh
Posts: 7396
Posted on 2008-09-14 19:08:52
Squish wrote:

hmmm...

I'm not sure which game you're playing but in Grid-Iron.org, the top divisions make more profit than the lower divisions. I suppose I'll just site the FAQ since some people don't bother reading it...


Club Shop
- "to successfully sell the merchandise you need to do good in the league games and preferably be in a higher level of competition."
-Earnings decrease for roughly 10% for each league level below the top division

So assuming you're in division 4 (as ~70% are) and you buy a Club shop and upgrade it the maximum 4 times you make $27,000 a week (not counting maintenance). You get - 30% earnings for being 3 divisions below the top. Thus your take is $18,900 a full $8,100 less just because you are in Division 4. What can you do for $8,100? You can pay 6.48 more staff members per week meaning 6.48 more training points per week. That seems like a big difference to me.


Now for the stadium...
- "League level the basic attendance is lowered by 6.000 for each level below the first; 54.000 for second level, 48.000 for third, 42.000 for fourth, and so on until the basic attendance is 6.000. The basic attendance stays 6.000 after the tenth level."

Say SOMEHOW the lower divisions kept up on stadium size (which they won't). The teams in the top division will be able to hold 18,000 more people at their maximum than the teams in Division 4 per home game. Let's say that they only get 15,000 of that extra attendance b/c they have bad weather that week (I'm being generous here). Let's say that attendance is divided by expected proportions between the seating sections (3% $120 VIP = 450, 7.5% $70 Exec = 1125, 89.5% $30 regular = 13425). You would make $535,500 more per game due to being in Division 1 rather than Division 4. That seems like a big difference to me. Counting all of next season (with 6 or 7 home games), that's a $3,213,000 difference. Add in 6 home friendly matches and the difference goes to $4,819,500 over the course of a season.


But anyway, I do agree with your thought that all things are finite in this game. Although, I've played many a game like this, and I must say that there is no way it will stay that way. The first person to max out their trainers will complain and the max will be raised. My guess is that stat ceilings will change too. I've seen it many times. World League Football (which this game is a clone of) experienced the same growing pains. Believing the caps will stay as is can be considered pretty naive.

I also agree that an active Division 4 team will no doubt be better than an inactive but wealthy division 1 team. That's not my concern. My concern is the difference between two equally well coached teams in the same position. Under the current system, the top team in all Division 4 will not catch the top Division 1 team for around 5 seasons in economic prosperity Assuming downtime in between seasons the time it will take for this catch-up process will be nearly 2 real-time years! And probably another 3 before their teams were as good.

My question is, do the game creators think it is fair to put some players 2 years behind others in development just because they signed up a mere month later? What % of players will even play that long? Won't the beta be reset before that happens? Assuming the D1 teams remain active and aren't idiots, they should already have clinched the beta championship simply because they are in D1. I've done the math and realized that I'm getting screwed in D4, why won't anyone else realize this?

I'll put out this bold statement...

If I were in D1 right now, I guarantee that my team would be making more money, have better players and be able to beat all D4 teams 100% of the time by the time beta ends. I'd start by building up my stadium. After reaching the max, the stuff I was talking about above would start (extra $4.8mil per season) I would corner the player market so NO D4 player could ever afford any of the players. By the time a D4 team raised to D1 (a full year from now), I would have players with skills 40% higher in every category at every position. My guess is that I would be able to not even set a formation and I'd beat them 100 to 0 despite the penalty. That seems like a handicap for D4 players to me...

Sound arguement, I'll concede the point.
  
Mercutioh
Posts: 7396
Posted on 2008-09-14 19:12:01
Squish wrote:

hmmm...

I'm not sure which game you're playing but in Grid-Iron.org, the top divisions make more profit than the lower divisions. I suppose I'll just site the FAQ since some people don't bother reading it...


Club Shop
- "to successfully sell the merchandise you need to do good in the league games and preferably be in a higher level of competition."
-Earnings decrease for roughly 10% for each league level below the top division

So assuming you're in division 4 (as ~70% are) and you buy a Club shop and upgrade it the maximum 4 times you make $27,000 a week (not counting maintenance). You get - 30% earnings for being 3 divisions below the top. Thus your take is $18,900 a full $8,100 less just because you are in Division 4. What can you do for $8,100? You can pay 6.48 more staff members per week meaning 6.48 more training points per week. That seems like a big difference to me.


Now for the stadium...
- "League level the basic attendance is lowered by 6.000 for each level below the first; 54.000 for second level, 48.000 for third, 42.000 for fourth, and so on until the basic attendance is 6.000. The basic attendance stays 6.000 after the tenth level."

Say SOMEHOW the lower divisions kept up on stadium size (which they won't). The teams in the top division will be able to hold 18,000 more people at their maximum than the teams in Division 4 per home game. Let's say that they only get 15,000 of that extra attendance b/c they have bad weather that week (I'm being generous here). Let's say that attendance is divided by expected proportions between the seating sections (3% $120 VIP = 450, 7.5% $70 Exec = 1125, 89.5% $30 regular = 13425). You would make $535,500 more per game due to being in Division 1 rather than Division 4. That seems like a big difference to me. Counting all of next season (with 6 or 7 home games), that's a $3,213,000 difference. Add in 6 home friendly matches and the difference goes to $4,819,500 over the course of a season.


But anyway, I do agree with your thought that all things are finite in this game. Although, I've played many a game like this, and I must say that there is no way it will stay that way. The first person to max out their trainers will complain and the max will be raised. My guess is that stat ceilings will change too. I've seen it many times. World League Football (which this game is a clone of) experienced the same growing pains. Believing the caps will stay as is can be considered pretty naive.

I also agree that an active Division 4 team will no doubt be better than an inactive but wealthy division 1 team. That's not my concern. My concern is the difference between two equally well coached teams in the same position. Under the current system, the top team in all Division 4 will not catch the top Division 1 team for around 5 seasons in economic prosperity Assuming downtime in between seasons the time it will take for this catch-up process will be nearly 2 real-time years! And probably another 3 before their teams were as good.

My question is, do the game creators think it is fair to put some players 2 years behind others in development just because they signed up a mere month later? What % of players will even play that long? Won't the beta be reset before that happens? Assuming the D1 teams remain active and aren't idiots, they should already have clinched the beta championship simply because they are in D1. I've done the math and realized that I'm getting screwed in D4, why won't anyone else realize this?

I'll put out this bold statement...

If I were in D1 right now, I guarantee that my team would be making more money, have better players and be able to beat all D4 teams 100% of the time by the time beta ends. I'd start by building up my stadium. After reaching the max, the stuff I was talking about above would start (extra $4.8mil per season) I would corner the player market so NO D4 player could ever afford any of the players. By the time a D4 team raised to D1 (a full year from now), I would have players with skills 40% higher in every category at every position. My guess is that I would be able to not even set a formation and I'd beat them 100 to 0 despite the penalty. That seems like a handicap for D4 players to me...

Sound arguement, I'll concede the point, That eventually there will be an issue with this game. The problem is you can't assume how big of a Beta you're going to get. starting everyone out in D IV and then filling upwards would absolutely cause a riot then you're REALLY punishing people at the bottom because not only are you giving the people at the top a financial advantage, but a true immediate competitive one as well because they play bots. I'd agree that some of the Math needs to be tweaked to avoid an insurmountable competitive edge but if you want to encourage promotion there needs to be some incentive to promote. There really can't be a level playing field for everyone for all times. So no matter what happens there is going to be someone who gets hosed.
  
Squish
Posts: 0
Posted on 2008-09-14 21:14:19
Agreed. I would fix the problem by putting everyone in the lowest Division. The lovely thing about that is the fact that there is really no limit to the number of leagues you could put in a division.

My plan would be to move all current teams into a Division 10B. The top 1 or 2 from each division are promoted every season. The bottom teams in D10 would stay as is. Since there are 10 divisions, there are 9 seasons worth of promotions before anyone reaches the top. Since the original designation of the division would be "B", it would allow the creators the future choice of whether to allow the teams to grow into a division such as "A", "AA", or "AAA". Depending on how popular the game gets, you could decide the next series of divisions based on need. It would allow for almost infinite growth of the game.

This plan will screw with the current ticket prices etc. but the pricing and profit system needs to be reworked. Eventually, every team will be making way more money than they could ever spend. Perhaps more for sale items could ease this transition (Equipment, farm teams used in a sponsor type system except with players). All I know is that something will need to change fairly soon. In my opinion, the main problem is with construction costs. Stadium construction in particular is way too cheap. I think that is what is skewing most costs. I think that perhaps salaries should go up as the division does as well. We'll see I guess though.

Squish
  
Mercutioh
Posts: 7396
Posted on 2008-09-14 21:42:36
I'd favor more of a reduction of bonus for league stratiation perhaps a reworking of the bonuses and such to a 2% as opposed to a 10% tiered model. The everyone starting at the bottom takes too long to have your top league populated with anything but bots. Going with a 10b plan as stated would mean that the first teams hit the top league at 10 seasons or roughly 3 years from now. and top two teams promoting with bottom 4 demoting is a LOT of turn over for a 10 team league.

I honestly don't think that they will remove the caps that they have in place for training etc. removing an upper limit for training other than the obvious time limitation would just serve to totally break the economic model. Players would eventually cost too much to pay a la Hattrick.

Plus the arguement still will be made that those starting at the bottom are being screwed because the people who promoted first have a VERY easy path to promoting to the top in a totally non competitive Bot situation where you blow out every one but your non promotees. No challenge to the game means little interest. whereas everyone who starts after gets to play actual human teams as the leagues fill up with promotees. The problem with the promotion relegation model is someone is going to get hosed, there is no if's ands or buts about it. You make some extremely valid points about economic disparity and while I did read the FAQ I'll admit I didn't crunch the finite numbers once construction has been fleshed out. Take into consideration though that in order to acheive that level of economic disparity you have to build a stadium that size. Honestly how long is it going to be before we see a stadium of 10k let alone 65k? I think with a lowering of the percentages in the economic disparity you retain competitive levels while not making people an uber team without requiring any management.
  
paopao
Posts: 0
Posted on 2008-09-15 16:51:00
really glad that i see people that take a stand here.

this is the major thing that must be fixed in this game,
  
Squish
Posts: 0
Posted on 2008-10-12 1:24:59
LOL! I love how the admins ignored our complaints about inequality. Then, they turned around and slapped us in the face by skewing the prize money given at the end of the season! I can understand giving extra money to supporters but to everyone above D4?! The 7th place team in D1 is going to be getting as much money as my 1st place D4 team. Real fair. In a normal world there are no consolation prizes. I'd think 1st-3rd should get something but to give a relegated team prize money nearly as big as the division winners is retarded. Which one of you genius' thought up the prize system? I guess I can't complain though; you guys are at least consistent in your unfairness and injustice.

Are you trying to be total douchebags or does it just come naturally? I can't wait until someone hacks the game. Hackers notoriously attack games that are unfair. We'll see if you make it through the year without someone getting pissed off and making a script for free money. Have fun with that!

Oh well, at least you can't say I didn't warn you (like 3 months ago)...
  
Mercutioh
Posts: 7396
Posted on 2008-10-12 5:22:15
On this point I agree with Squish, maybe not with the same vehemence, but all the same the fact that relegated teams make almost as much as division winners is a bit much to take. This will very quickly assure that the haves will be better in the immediate future as well as the long run than the have nots. The Amount of difference from a division one squad and a division four squad is enough to purchase 375 exec seats. spread this advantage over 9 home games and you have a difference of 236250 dollars! That's a healthy chunk of change! I think that maybe the difference in divisions shouldn't be 10% but rather 2% with the same stratiation in prizes for each place in the league this will even out the playing field for teams trying to promote. this takes the financial disparity from the top to the bottom from 30% to a more manageable 6% please for the continued health of the game consider the long term effects of this plan.
  
SteelerSal
Posts: 1596
Posted on 2008-10-12 5:32:38
I agree.
  
Akake Noki
Posts: 444
Posted on 2008-10-12 9:13:21
I disagree.
  
 
Forum index >> Grid-Iron discussions >> Egality of teams Goto page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5