Unlike the rest of you forum posters, I don't tend to lump the whole OL together into one set of attributes. I actually think the builds of a tackle and guard are as different as the builds of a DL and LB.

For me the center needs mainly blocking and strength but also some speed to get off the ball quick enough to hold his ground. Positioning may be slightly needed for the same reason but I don't think footwork has any place in a center as he's the OL that moves the least.

The guards are a sort of middle ground. They have the job of holding would be pass rushers between the tackles and don't need to worry about any real sort of containment. For that reason, brute strength will do wonders here and blocking is very valuable too. If you are a passing team this is all you really need at guard. If you are a running team, the position becomes entirely more complicated. Since they pull, blocking (which I treat as technique) needs to be high as well as footwork and speed. On a running team, your guards should be your fastest OLs with the best footwork and likely blocking but not necessarily strength. They need to be versatile mostly.

The tackles are the same on any type of team as their main job is pass protection and forming the pocket. Because opposing pass rushers can go both outside or inside, the tackles need to be able to shift their feet easily (footwork) while maintaining their ability to block (blocking). They also need positioning for the same basic reason as footwork. They will usually step back off the ball a bit and need positioning to pick the right point in the pass rush to take their stand and form the pocket. Since bull-rushing is a common pass rushing technique the tackles also need great strength to avoid getting outmatched on the outside. A mismatch in strength here is the worst thing that can happen to a passing offense other than a bum lineup (See Seattle Seahawks week 6 game). THis is also the one OL position that I really value INT at. Real-life tackles will tell you that you almost need a psychic ability to play the position. You have to "feel" when to set the pocket and where the QB is without seeing them. You just have to know (as the QB needs to "feel" pressure from the blindside). You have to guess the defenders move before he makes it less you get burned. For a rushing offense the benefits of high positioning, footwork, and INT are a bit lower and the premium on blocking and strength higher but otherwise it is the same.

All in all your most skilled OLs in the "usual" attributes should probably be your guards if you are a rushing offense and your tackles if you are a passing offense because overall those are the most important positions for their respective plans. I'm not saying that centers are where you throw your crap but this game doesn't seem to prize them quite as much as real life. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Throw your great OLs at Guard and watch your rushing stats go up. Throw them at Tackle and you'll notice less QB pressures and perhaps even better passing stats (I did).

Squish wrote: Unlike the rest of you forum posters, I don't tend to lump the whole OL together into one set of attributes. I actually think the builds of a tackle and guard are as different as the builds of a DL and LB. For me the center needs mainly blocking and strength but also some speed to get off the ball quick enough to hold his ground. Positioning may be slightly needed for the same reason but I don't think footwork has any place in a center as he's the OL that moves the least. The guards are a sort of middle ground. They have the job of holding would be pass rushers between the tackles and don't need to worry about any real sort of containment. For that reason, brute strength will do wonders here and blocking is very valuable too. If you are a passing team this is all you really need at guard. If you are a running team, the position becomes entirely more complicated. Since they pull, blocking (which I treat as technique) needs to be high as well as footwork and speed. On a running team, your guards should be your fastest OLs with the best footwork and likely blocking but not necessarily strength. They need to be versatile mostly. The tackles are the same on any type of team as their main job is pass protection and forming the pocket. Because opposing pass rushers can go both outside or inside, the tackles need to be able to shift their feet easily (footwork) while maintaining their ability to block (blocking). They also need positioning for the same basic reason as footwork. They will usually step back off the ball a bit and need positioning to pick the right point in the pass rush to take their stand and form the pocket. Since bull-rushing is a common pass rushing technique the tackles also need great strength to avoid getting outmatched on the outside. A mismatch in strength here is the worst thing that can happen to a passing offense other than a bum lineup (See Seattle Seahawks week 6 game). THis is also the one OL position that I really value INT at. Real-life tackles will tell you that you almost need a psychic ability to play the position. You have to "feel" when to set the pocket and where the QB is without seeing them. You just have to know (as the QB needs to "feel" pressure from the blindside). You have to guess the defenders move before he makes it less you get burned. For a rushing offense the benefits of high positioning, footwork, and INT are a bit lower and the premium on blocking and strength higher but otherwise it is the same. All in all your most skilled OLs in the "usual" attributes should probably be your guards if you are a rushing offense and your tackles if you are a passing offense because overall those are the most important positions for their respective plans. I'm not saying that centers are where you throw your crap but this game doesn't seem to prize them quite as much as real life. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Throw your great OLs at Guard and watch your rushing stats go up. Throw them at Tackle and you'll notice less QB pressures and perhaps even better passing stats (I did).

dont think the game engine goes anywhere close to that advance.
i also recall admins saying somewhere that positioning is mainly a defensive skill

the center is quite valuable. Interior D-lineman are the biggest threat in the run game. NT and DT are the ones making the tackles so Centers and guards need to be strong

Squish wrote: iMan24 wrote: dont think the game engine goes anywhere close to that advance. i also recall admins saying somewhere that positioning is mainly a defensive skill I don't remember this. I remember hearing from mod that positioning is part of the pass catching roll and influences the QB in the pocket. I believe they admitted it had a role in blocking as well. iMan24 wrote: the center is quite valuable. Interior D-lineman are the biggest threat in the run game. NT and DT are the ones making the tackles so Centers and guards need to be strong Show me the results of your tests and I'll believe you. I've put fluff in at center and seen no depreciated results for either the run or pass. It was this data that led me to replace my center with a brand new guy starting day 1. I hasn't slowed my offense down any and my run game actually got better. I think it's safe to assume that when playing a 3 man front on defense, the NT gets double teamed anyway.

my run game has improved with my centers progression. my center is the smartest and highest BPOS lineman and ever since i bumped up his strength, my run game has been much improved.
i dont run test, i just play my guys and look at the results. my run game has improved tremendously from last season and i attribute that to the increase strength of my center and in part the rest of my line. my OT have improved the least in terms of skill in my line.

you are always claiming from your test this and that, show me your test. i run the ball a boatload and i get a lot of info from it. For a guy that claims 100% passing is the way to go, you sure know lots about running the ball

Yeah, I'm not sure how the game works but in real life, playing against a 3-4 is quite a bit more complicated for the OL. Normally, The tackles handle the DEs and the center handles the NT. Obviously with two DTs instead of DEs, it seems this can't work quite right because the DTs are too far from the tackles. This is where the complexity of playing against a 3-4 comes in.

As we said, normally a Tackle handles the DEs. So what do the guards do? It may seem they simply block the LBs that blitz inside. In fact this is not the case. The guards do a different thing depending on the situation. Generally before the game, each guard is assigned an LB or two to watch for AND a player to double team if that/those LB(s) don't end up coming. The player assigned would be either the DE or NT on their side. Often to avoid the complexity, QBs simply audible for a line shift towards the projected blitzes side. This effectively frees the Center or Guard plug the gap the blitzer would come through.

For reference, If playing against a 4-3, doing a line shift a towards the side a running play is going to allows the tackle to replace the guard as the blocker of the DT which allows the Guard to "pull" without worry to go to wherever needed on the opposite side (generally to seal of the DE on that side). This effectively adds an extra OL to the side the run is going to and "traps" the guard's assignment in the shift of the line. That DE will get through but normally by the time he does, the Back is already well out of reach on the other side of the line. In addition, the tackle usually puts a big time hit on the DT once he runs into the "trap" which may free him up to block downfield. When you do the math, it's clear to see why the trap is a popular running play. The offense utilizing a trap ends up with a Center, Tackle, 2 Guards, and often an FB against a DT, DE, and 1-2 LBs. IF the HB can make a guy miss and the WR on that side (if there is one) holds his block then the run will often hit the secondary. This is one of the reasons the 3-4 started being used. In action in makes the DT normally being trapped a wild card LB blitzer who can fill whatever gap is necessary. As the LBs got smarter, the 3-4 got more popular because the LBs could always react early enough to fill the correct gaps thereby stuffing runs and often shooting the gap to get to the QB. This tendency to run the 3-4 has lessened over the years as QBs started calling audibles at the line which made the LBs basically need to guess on the field again.

Anyway, in the situation you described, it's really just a reversal of roles I would assume with the tackles taking over the job of thinking. It's hard to relate a 3 tackle set to real life since in real life such a defense would be utterly useless. With 3 defenders in between the tackles, it plugs the off-center runs well enough but everything else is wide open. In addition, LBs lose the ability to blitz between the tackles because there is far too much traffic. In reality what would normally take 4 OLs to block now only takes the Center and Guards since the Guards can easily give away the inside and cheat to get interior containment on the Defensive Tackles. After all the 3 defensive tackles combined are only attacking two gaps (the 1 gap on either side). Thus the 2 gaps are clear and the Tackles end up pretty much free to do as they wish. If a blitz comes outside it is ineffective because a tackle can easy handle an LB one on one. If the LB tries to hit the 1 or 2 gap on either side, they either run into traffic right off the bat or get blocked into it. If they go outside, they likely get pancaked. Either way, any run going through gaps 2 or 3 should easily get 5 yards without contact. If a blitz doesn't come on the outside, that side has a Tackle (and possibly an FB) out in front of the play turning it into a lethal big play threat. Add TEs on one side or both and it's a recipe for disaster... in real life. This is why nobody plays with a DT-NT-DT front in football anymore. Theoretically, that formation would only work against a RB who is slow as molasses and can't get outside (or in this game, a team that attacks the center). Otherwise your defense gets shredded by sweeps and screens all day.

By playing with a DE-NT-DE formation instead, you force the tackles to have to do something right off the snap (help the Guard take the DE)which rids you of that deadly lead blocker on outside runs. In addition, you spread the line out more which opens gaps for your LBs to blitz through and or hit to stop runs coming through.

Obviosuly I'm speaking of reality which has no place here. Also, in real life, the defense would know better than to not lineup across from gaps. In this game, I think it gives you the benefit of the doubt and treats 3 tackles as the DE-NT-DE front 3 likely with a penalty to pass rush but bonus to run stopping. At least I assume so, since many people play it and it seems not to have had the disasterous consequences it should have.

Well, you have given me a new research project! I plan on attacking the flanks if I can find someone to play that formation against me. If there is a weakness to that formation, an attack on the flanks should be it. It's also a perfect way to test how much WRs block if at all. If in fact they do, the outside run could be the way of the future if a team is built properly.