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Blocking Skill as a Defensive Player
 
AbCat
Posts: 2510
Posted on 2020-07-17 9:57:33
I've never trained blocking for defensive players. It usually goes up quite a bit when you train tackling and agility anyway, but what use would a defesive lineman have for blocking?

Unless you dual-role players, it's surely not worth training for defenders.
  
campuscodi
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Posted on 2020-07-17 13:03:35
*looks in the mirror and whispers:

Admin, Admin, Admin, Admin, Admin
  
hoospack
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Posted on 2020-07-17 20:29:28
AbCat wrote:

I've never trained blocking for defensive players. It usually goes up quite a bit when you train tackling and agility anyway, but what use would a defesive lineman have for blocking?

Unless you dual-role players, it's surely not worth training for defenders.



So its interesting you say that AbCat because that was what I thought for a long time. When I started to notice better consistent defensive results with defenders trained in blocking, I thought it was just a coincidence. When I started to read some of the old Admin comments about Blocking as it pertains to defensive positions I found them oddly vague, somewhat suspicious....almost purposely deceptive. In some cases it seems it does apply (even indirectly) while in others the subject is completely avoided.

I personally think Blocking is a factor in the game engine for certain defensive positions but not because it is a primary skill, but because they made it a secondary skill (for reasons unknown). If I think about this like a game coder, this engine is not super sophisticated. Therefore, it makes sense why the Admins would keep the details vague if something DOES affect the position, but they don't want to specifically admit it, because even they can't explain why.

Unfortunately, it has been up to us to figure out whats in the sauce.

Again: This is just my opinion from what I have observed. This is not advice for people to start focus training defensive players on Blocking.
  
hoospack
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Posted on 2020-07-17 20:44:52
Let me try to explain this a different way...

Many people seem to believe that STCB uses Blocking as a primary skill because they perform a "blocking" function in the game engine. However, there is no STCB position on your roster. Therefore, the STCB position must employ primary skills from the CB position.

I don't believe the game engine is sophisticated enough to create its own STCB position during the match and pull a different set of skills for this purpose. Therefore, it must be employing the same skills denoted as "Primary" and "Secondary" skills for the CB, which means Blocking would have to be included in this skill set and would have to be used in the game engine for the CB position also.

Deductive reasoning dictates that this is a logical conclusion to make.

If you look at it further, the devs *could* have said that "blocking" is also a way for defensive players to defend against the pass. Since there is no "pass defense" skill, it is logical to think that CB's trained in blocking also uses this skill for that purpose. You could take it a step further and apply this thinking to any defensive player that defends against the pass.

This is just a fun exercise in applying rational thought to an irrational game. haha

I also think the Admins being purposely vague and non-specific on this topic give more credence to this notion because the lack of flexibility in the game engine means they had to do it this way, but they won't admit it.
  
AbCat
Posts: 2510
Posted on 2020-07-17 23:21:54
hoospack wrote:

Let me try to explain this a different way...

Many people seem to believe that STCB uses Blocking as a primary skill because they perform a "blocking" function in the game engine. However, there is no STCB position on your roster. Therefore, the STCB position must employ primary skills from the CB position.

I don't believe the game engine is sophisticated enough to create its own STCB position during the match and pull a different set of skills for this purpose. Therefore, it must be employing the same skills denoted as "Primary" and "Secondary" skills for the CB, which means Blocking would have to be included in this skill set and would have to be used in the game engine for the CB position also.

Deductive reasoning dictates that this is a logical conclusion to make.

If you look at it further, the devs *could* have said that "blocking" is also a way for defensive players to defend against the pass. Since there is no "pass defense" skill, it is logical to think that CB's trained in blocking also uses this skill for that purpose. You could take it a step further and apply this thinking to any defensive player that defends against the pass.

This is just a fun exercise in applying rational thought to an irrational game. haha

I also think the Admins being purposely vague and non-specific on this topic give more credence to this notion because the lack of flexibility in the game engine means they had to do it this way, but they won't admit it.



It's good that you're thinking like a game developer, although I'd say this train of reasoning is more speculative than deductive so far. The next step is to look at the results and performances of defensive players with and without blocking.

Thankfully, with a lot of teams using dual-role players, quite often you have these guys playing side-by-side in the same game as right defensive tackle and left defensive tackle, for example. In my experience, such players don't seem any better as far as I've seen. You can either go off the player's star ratings from the match, or just count the number of tackles and hurries and sacks they make to measure this, or if you're really pro-active, look at their opposite number's performance against what they usually produce.

I've played against teams like Salamanca Roadtrains, who specialised in using dual-role players, which meant their defenders would have had blocking as a skill, and they did well, but not as well as you might expect - only one league title to their name. For the UK national team, the best performers in the defensive line tended not to have blocking as a skill. And for Weasels, it hasn't seemed to improve a player's defensive performance when they have good blocking.

Then again I haven't really been looking for it, so I could be totally wrong.
  
Hard-core fan (ultimate supporter owner)PHI 21GI Supporter
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Posted on 2020-07-18 3:29:42
At one point, when admin were answering questions (yes, a very long time ago), Admins pretty much stated that CB and STCB used the same skills except, STCB used Blocking instead of Tackling.
So there is suppose to be a difference in the game between them other than just when they lineup.
  
Hard-core fan (ultimate supporter owner)BloodbeakGI Supporter
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Posted on 2020-07-18 7:31:52
PHI 21 wrote:

At one point, when admin were answering questions (yes, a very long time ago), Admins pretty much stated that CB and STCB used the same skills except, STCB used Blocking instead of Tackling.
So there is suppose to be a difference in the game between them other than just when they lineup.


Admin stated that KR TDs were possible, yet across all divisions and divisional tiers, who can report even one ever occurring? We will all win our respective country's division 1 lottery three times each before we ever see what a Melderon-programmed KR TD looks like.

Admin also spent time that could have been dedicated to rescuing a game that people actually gave a crap about creating a "futuristic" space game that wouldn't have stood up against games created in the 1980s, and was eventually closed down due to lack of interest. Insert part where this relates to original post here, I'm too drunk to make that correlation despite my alcohol-addled brain insisting that there is some kind of link between that and this game's astonishing lack of progress..

  

"Some people have way too much thyme on their hands"
- Phat Katt

SrednaDGI Supporter
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Posted on 2020-07-18 8:01:43
I only train blocking for defensive players to save money and have as many players on dual or triple positions in a game. Therefore, blocking is good for defensive players as I as manager can train them higher and save wages.

I still believe that a position has 2 or 3 major skills and then 2 or 3 minor skills that are used in the calculation of each play. Skills do not relate.to BPOS as a 5 skilled 5 star player will still have the possibility to get 5 star BPOS in a game.

And still, the engine IMHO is so basic that it makes a series of man to man calculations during a play and the result is then made from that.

Let's not overthink this sim. K.I.S.S. and work on having a balanced training for key players.
  

"Quarterbacks should wear a dress." - Jack Lambert

If you are ever feeling down, just know that neither of Dorfenschmirtz's parents showed up to his birth.

hoospack
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Posted on 2020-07-18 8:31:17
Bloodbeak wrote:

PHI 21 wrote:

At one point, when admin were answering questions (yes, a very long time ago), Admins pretty much stated that CB and STCB used the same skills except, STCB used Blocking instead of Tackling.
So there is suppose to be a difference in the game between them other than just when they lineup.


Admin stated that KR TDs were possible, yet across all divisions and divisional tiers, who can report even one ever occurring? We will all win our respective country's division 1 lottery three times each before we ever see what a Melderon-programmed KR TD looks like.

Admin also spent time that could have been dedicated to rescuing a game that people actually gave a crap about creating a "futuristic" space game that wouldn't have stood up against games created in the 1980s, and was eventually closed down due to lack of interest. Insert part where this relates to original post here, I'm too drunk to make that correlation despite my alcohol-addled brain insisting that there is some kind of link between that and this game's astonishing lack of progress..



hahaha all of my thoughts boiled down into 1 post. Well done!
  
hoospack
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Posted on 2020-07-18 8:32:53
SrednaD wrote:

I only train blocking for defensive players to save money and have as many players on dual or triple positions in a game. Therefore, blocking is good for defensive players as I as manager can train them higher and save wages.

I still believe that a position has 2 or 3 major skills and then 2 or 3 minor skills that are used in the calculation of each play. Skills do not relate.to BPOS as a 5 skilled 5 star player will still have the possibility to get 5 star BPOS in a game.

And still, the engine IMHO is so basic that it makes a series of man to man calculations during a play and the result is then made from that.

Let's not overthink this sim. K.I.S.S. and work on having a balanced training for key players.



You're exactly right. Which is why I used the K.I.S.S. method and put my "basic algorithm Melderon" hat on while analyzing this topic. I think there are many calculations that even THEY don't understand.... and that is the point of trying to find the "answer" in the riddle.
  
 
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